Art by Liz Orton
Should you post work-in-progress that you’re trying to publish? How do you get work when you start out? And how do you deal with the fear of success when a publisher shows interest? This week, Jake Parker, Lee White, and Will Terry discuss the answers to these questions, as well as giving us a candid look into their ideal rock-band karaoke tributes (Only on Youtube!)
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SHOW LINKS
Don’t Let the Pigeon Drive the Bus
What They Don’t Teach You in Art School
Jake feels that when it comes to NFTs the goal post is always being moved. You find a platform that solves one problem and you just find another problem underneath. (Will says this is like when your child is in a bad mood and no matter how many of their problems you help them solve there is always a new one.)
Jake then asks Lee to explain his reasoning for putting a slide in his house. Lee’s looking into building his own home and the something on his want list is a slide because in his opinion you can never have a bad day when you start it by sliding down from one floor to the other,
He has made a list of problems that come with slides and he plans to solve them (like for sticky slides he’ll put potato sacks at the top of the slide for people to sit on when they go down) because-- like rest stop bathrooms-- Lee has a five point rating scale for slides, and he says that his is going to be the best designed indoor slide in the US.
According to Will, to go faster on a metal slide you go dumpster diving for one of those waxed paper cups that I’m pretty sure don’t exist anymore and you sit on them while going down the slide. This will make the slide slicker for the people who go down after you.
Will used to do this on a piece of playground equipment called a rocketship.
The developer who made the rocketship thought the ramp he designed to walk on was going to be used one way and then was repurposed into something else by the people who actually used it.
QUESTIONS
Mary asks- To Post or Not to Post? That is my question.
Hello, Jake, Lee, and Will. Your podcast is excellent and I learn something brand spanking new everytime I listen. I’m getting ready to query an illustrating dummy. I have a website and instagram account devoted to my children’s book illustrations. Should I include the illustrations in my dummy in my website portfolio for more exposure or keep them under wraps in case the book gets acquired and the publisher/agent wants to control that piece?
Thank you for your advice and wisdom.
Mary.
Lee says that thinking like this is a mistake and that any exposure to something could help it get picked up. He thinks about film students and how they make shorts and because of those shorts they might get hired somewhere and the short might be turned into something bigger. But, even if the short is going to be turned into a feature film the studio doesn’t go “oh, we are never going to show this short to anyone ever.”
That’s where he’s at on this. Make a few spreads of something and roll the dice. If people steal your idea- well- it’s illegal but it happens. Whatever you show can generate interest for you to get picked up. Run with it and if it’s good, maybe you’ll get some attention.
Will agrees saying you’ve got to get your work out there and other work could come in based off the stuff that you're showing from other projects.
Jake always goes back to the words “an artist’s worst problem isn’t piracy it’s obscurity.” You know you’re doing something right, something that people want, when your work is getting pirated and posted to other platforms. You can always deal with that later but publishers are generally fine with you having some art on your website/instagram account showing what you do and what you’re doing for them because it will start building a fanbase for your work and their story.
He is working on a book proposal for CC and Benson (he’s been working on these drawings on and off for about 12 years). By posting drawings of these characters and the work that he’s been doing with them hopefully he’s built a fanbase, and if not that than at least a group of people who are familiar with the characters, so when a book does come out it will have at least some sort of opening it can step into.
He says post it, with the caveat that if whatever your drawings are of is a new idea that you are actively trying to get published, maybe hold on to it until that happens. Maybe don’t post something you want published and then take it to a publishing house five years later. Maybe that’s something you do when you’re closer to having it actually being part of a book (like maybe a year out instead). By doing this you're opening yourself up to someone not necessarily stealing your idea but maybe stealing your thunder.
Edgar Rice Burroughs- John Carter of Mars. These books came out in the early 1900s. He established a bunch of science fiction tropes that we see in a lot of stories today, but then Disney came out with John Carter and you're like “I’ve seen this before”.
That’s a bigger example of the problems you can have but that’s if your idea is super groundbreaking. CC and Benson is a spin on the animal best friends go on adventures storyline and that’s why he’s ok having it out there.
Will asks if Jake sees that kind of not-quite-plagiarism in art as much as you see it in writing? Because he feels like he hasn’t- someone’s not going to be able to steal an entire story from you by looking at one piece of art.
Jake agrees, you’re not going to get the story but if the images you have are iconic enough posting the image might cause a shift in ideas in someone who sees it- like oh I’m not going to do a pig in fancy clothes anymore. I’m gonna draw a hippo. And then, you come along with your pig who's into fancy clothes and ballet and the publisher says “well, we’ve already got something pretty similar to that.”
You kind of just have to do the dance of how unique is my idea v. how close am I to taking this to market with your idea.
One of Lee’s pet peeves about publishing is how quickly the industry reacts about when stories have similar subjects. When the story Creepy Carrots came out a few years ago Lee had a story about turnips ready- it was a completely different story and vegetable but the rejection he got was vehement because both stories were about vegetables.
Will had a similar experience with Scholastic. He thought he had pretty much sold the book but it was too similar to Don’t Let the Pigeon Drive the Bus.
Jake agrees that publishing is a ver reactionary industry. There’s an editor who sees something new and they risk their reputation on it and, when that decision works out well then everyone else in the industry is either eager to do something just like that or is afraid to do anything of the like.
Beverly asks- But seriously, how do I get work?
I have heard the question over and over and no matter how many times I heed the advice I get no results. If I want to be a freelancer, how in the world do I get in contact with someone or some way to figure out how to get work. I have sent out postcards, looked for names of art directors and agents and sent direct emails, searched the internet for any jobs, tried to grow my following, I cannot get a freelancing job to save my life and so far just sell on Etsy. I would love to get editorial work, or do backgrounds, book covers, or ANYTHING! Very frustrating. Maybe I just am not even good enough to warrant a response? Please send help!
TO ALL THE PEOPLE SENDING IN QUESTIONS PERTAINING TO YOUR WORK- SEND US A LINK SO WE CAN TAKE A LOOK
Will’s skepticism is that there’s something wrong with the work but he would love to be able to look at your work and be like “wow… okay there’s something else going on here.”
This reminds him of a situation involving Brett Helquist (A Series of Unfortunate Events), a friend and peer of Will’s who was a year behind him in the illustration program at BYU. A year or two out of school he tells Will that he’s thinking about quitting. He had been working at a temp agency and freelancing at night. He’d been sending out postcards and trying to get his work out there, but it wasn’t working out like he’d hoped.
Will was on his mailing list for these postcards and Will told him that he was receiving the postcards and they were amazing. Will responded, “Brett your stuff is so much better than mine and I’m busy with freelance work. How many people are you mailing to?”
Brett responded that he had been sending his postcards out to 50 people every other month, and Will scoffed because he had been mailing 1200 every other month. “That’s your problem,” he said, “no one knows who you are.” If your work is good and the right people see your work you’re going to get work. It’s cause and effect.
Almost every time Will sees this question he’ll take a look at the work, and usually these people are either missing the mark and their work is really low quality or their work is in the middle where there’s a huge crowd of other artists scrambling for work.
In his book, What They Don’t Teach You in Art School, he explains with a graph that your work has to be really high quality in comparison with other artists if you’re going to take work away from them.
Lee would add that llustration is a different field for every artist, but that the good people always get work. If you’re in the middle of the bell shaped curve- you will have to do a lot of work and a lot of hustle to put yourself out there but there will always be a need for good work.
Dan Santat, was one of those illustrators who was for lack of a better phrase fast-tracked. He got a book deal right after graduation. So, for him, life as a children's book illustrator is awesome, but for Lee it wasn’t that easy and he had to work some less than ideal jobs to get to a place where he does have options in his work.
Lee notes that Beverly is selling on Etsy so her work is resonating with someone, but her next sentence about how she’ll do anything at this point seems a bit out of place to him. She’s doing a targeted marketing job by sending out postcards and that sentence seems too broad.
Milton Glaser came and gave a talk at Will’s school while he was there and during that he said that most art directors need 10 pieces of the same quality in the same genre to risk their career on choosing you. This speaks to what Lee’s saying. That is, she is so all over the place in the work she’s looking for she probably doesn't have 10 editorial pieces that work together and show your skill.
Jake says what you need to do next is to sit down with a professional and have them take a look at your art so they can give you either a pat on the back and some ideas to improve your marketing or a push in the right direction of how you can improve your work.
Go to conferences and ask around for professionals or drop your portfolio off at a local design firm and say hey I’m looking for work and it’s not happening. I’m not sure what I’m doing wrong here. Could you give me some feedback?
Will would love to follow up with Beverly and to take a look at her art. Jake says that’s the key to just send 1 or 2 pieces to like 20 different illustrators and ask for feedback. Some will respond, some won’t but it never hurts to ask.
And remember, to give them permission to be honest with you. Make sure you tell them that you need honest feedback to grow and that you won’t be resentful of them for their opinions.
Donna asks,
"Hi Dear Sirs (Mr. Jake, Mr. Will, and Mr. Lee White),
Thanks for providing a space to ask questions. I can praise what you guys do all day but I’ll just dive right into the point.
I’ve reached out to a few artists, art agents, and local publishers with my work. Based on their feedback, my skill is good enough but the quantity is lacking. They gave me a few ideas for projects and I’ve come up with a list of illustrations I want to do but I was hit with a sudden lack of motivation, sense of purposelessness and overwhelm.
While I can’t fully explain the reasons for these feelings, a part of it might be the fear of success, the fact I need to give this my 100% and the knowledge it’s going to be a long and lonely road. You’ve talked about this in other podcast episodes so perhaps what I’m looking for is not so much a step by step advice but some words of encouragement, saying if this is worth it, key mindset shifts someone like me should work on.
Hope this resonates with you and your listeners.
PS: for context, here’s a link to my web folio so far https://donnamakesart.com
Thanks and best!
Jake says, looking at your portfolio, you have what it takes to do this. Congrats.
He deals with motivation with a soundtrack in his head- something that gets him pumped up. And he doesn’t mean pick a bunch of songs, he means have an idea of what you want your journey to look like.
Ask yourself, “Why am I taking this job?” “Why am I working so hard?” “Why have I chosen to do this hard thing?”
Do you have financial goals? If you land this job can you work towards any of those? Do your children have needs you want to pay for? Do you have a retirement fund?
Is your future self going to be proud of what you have accomplished today? Even just making a drawing that day can inspire you 10 years down the line.
Maybe if you get your work done for something you can reward yourself with something you really love. But, if you’re gonna do this- find someone to talk about your goals with so they can help keep you accountable.
The motivation is if I do X I’ll get Y- and you need to sort out what you Y’s are.
Lee says that’s pretty good advice but… what she’s saying is that all of a sudden she’s having to say that she’s a full time illustrator and what her success means for her future. And so what he would do is get rid of the idea of what success looks like.
Go back to the basics and remind yourself of the little parts of illustration that you understand and love. Find what you absolutely love about each part of the process and focus on that. He’s where you are and what you need to do. What do you like about it?
Rediscovering what you love about something in the middle of its success can help take away that pressure.
Lee’s advice is to enjoy the journey more. Focus more on the journey and you will find the end result less overwhelming. Jake’s advice is to focus on what the success in your career can help you accomplish in your life. He’s looking into the future and seeing good things- things that he wants.
Will’s advice is sort of in the middle. He says that there are going to be uninspiring moments but you should never be making art to be liked. It’s importent of course for art directors to like and want to commission your style, but you should always be making art for yourself. Because you like to draw, paint, etc.
When you're doing something you want to do, you (1) get to do whatever you want however you want and (2) it always leads to work. He finds motivation working on projects for himself, working on something he finds fun.
Jake’s wife said the other day that she can’t do today, she doesn’t have it in her. And he remembered someone saying that sharks never wake up and feel that way. Sharks never say that they don’t have it in them to ‘shark’ that day.
As an illustrator, you could only work when you’re feeling awesome and inspired but then you’re kind of stuck only having those moments for work. When the stars align and the perfect song comes on but those moments are few and far between and, sometimes, you just have to show up and do the work because you’re an illustrator and sometimes there’s nothing romantic about that.
Seth Godin said something along the lines of ‘plumbers never get plumber‘s block. They never see a clogged toilet and think I don’t know how to get through this problem. They roll up their sleeves and go to work.
Artists have a tendency to wait until their muse appears to do any work, but sometimes you just have to roll up your sleeves and get the job done. It might not be pretty but you now have a body of work that you can now go and find the nuggets of gold in there.
Everyone he knows that is working consistently only really loves their job and is really feeling inspired by it 1 day out of 9. It’s a bleak reality because this job is a struggle and there are going to be times when you don’t know exactly what to do, but there is joy to be found in the problem solving process.
Will brings up another option: you could find someone to mentor and help them with their art. He’s always found that helping others really helps you see and feel better about what you do know and it changes your attitude and it makes you feel better. Sometimes you just need that perspective change and sometimes helping people can give you that.
LINKS
Jake Parker: mrjakeparker.com. Instagram: @jakeparker, Youtube: JakeParker44
Will Terry: willterry.com. Instagram: @willterryart, Youtube: WillTerryArt
Lee White: leewhiteillustration.com. Instagram: @leewhiteillo
Daniel Tu: danieltu.co.
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